TED 05 | Safe Spaces and the Role of the Teacher with Vanessa Bright

Episode 5

Joining me today, I have Vanessa Bright. Vanessa is a life coach and musician and singer. She's a very creative individual and that extends to dance. Vanessa has been a bachata dancer on and off for the last several years, and we met at a bachata choreo lesson series, and I am. Very happy to welcome Vanessa to join us today.

Welcome, Vanessa.  Thank you, Barbie. Thanks for having me on your show.  Brilliant to have you here. And so you, you've been dancing bachata, you've been dipping in and out of the scene for several years now.  Yeah, so, um, I actually started, and it's not been continuous, and my friends within the dance community know this, because they're like, Oh, I haven't seen you for a while, when I turn up to a class. 

Um, I started actually in 2008, and it's quite interesting how I started, um, I didn't really like salsa music and bachata when I first heard it, and I think it was like sort of a conditioning from friends that I was with at the time, that, oh, that's, that music's like, oh, it's It's a showy offy type of music and that's all it is for.

And the dancing as well, um, to go with it is more for like, Oh, they're just showing off, you know.  It's interesting how other people's mindsets and opinions can really permeate into our own way of thinking. Yeah, totally, totally. But it was a friend of mine in Reading who was really into salsa. And she took me once to a salsa club.

Um, it's no longer there in Reading, but back in the days in like 2008 and um, it just, the music just started to grow on me and I was like, Oh, this is quite cool. And then she dragged me up onto the dance floor and then the, um, the people that she knew because she'd been doing lessons and she knew the instructors in Reading, etc.

And, um, yeah, so it was just on the dance floor that I met, um, friends of hers that go to classes and they were teaching me a little bit of basic salsa and bachata. Yeah. And I was like, this is quite cool, actually, I think I might give this a go, you know. And I started to enjoy the music as well, it started to grow on me a bit more.

And the next thing I know was like, um, I actually for a while was just learning on the dancefloor, not taking lessons. Yeah. And, um, I found that I could pick up quite easily because, My origins are from Mauritius and, um, we have dancing there which is very much based, it's called Segga dancing and it's very much based on the hip movement.

So, it's sort of, we're like born with that or we, we kind of learn that through, um, the dance community within, like, Mauritian parties and, you know, communities, etc. That's very cool. That I sort of had the natural hip movement, um, there, but everything else it was like Um, just slowly. It's amazing what you pick up subconsciously just through, um, listening to people.

Like, your brain's like a sponge, isn't it? You just soak up the environment. You soak up the information. And before I knew it, I was like, this is really good. I want to start doing lessons. But I was already past the beginner stage at that point, just through learning on the dance floor. Um, but I always think lessons are important because it, it just brings that finesse to learning.

Yeah, I'm so angry. I'm never done with that.  Yeah, and it's the same with music as well. Like, you know, learning instruments, like for me, I've learned enough in instruments to create music, but to get to a good level, I would need lessons in piano and guitar and  etc. So the same applies to dance. And, um, yeah, and I, I actually got heavily involved in the dance community in Reading, because that's where I was working at the time.

Nice. And, um, I was there for 14 years, so I became very involved with the salsa community in particular. And then I went to live in Spain for a little while. Amazing.  And then had the experience of the dance community over there in Valencia. I was going to ask where I would go to. Yeah. My brother's just moved to Valencia and I was thinking, I'm already thinking on a visit.

What's the dancing going to be like?  Oh, yeah. Well, I was there quite a while ago now. It was 2010.  But, um, yeah, it was, I found like the, um, I went to one class and I did like, you know, social dancing.  Um, and I wasn't in Valencia for that long actually, just because I realized that I was there actually teaching English because I took a career break in IT back then. 

Um, so I always like to try new things and then I realized that's not, not for me teaching English. It wasn't really for me in the end. Um, but.  with the dancing. Um, yeah, I just, I found that the class I went to was quite high standard, actually.  Um, I don't know if that's across Spain, if, if that's the case or not, because I've not been dancing in enough cities in Spain to know that, but I found that I had to up my game there.

But I think that's probably to do with there's quite a large Latin American community there in Valencia as well as Spanish. And, and so Yeah, there's a lot of, what I liked was the natural ways of dancing. Yeah, because the way we learn here is very prescriptive. We learn moves and combinations and then we have to learn that flow and naturalness  later on.

Whereas those who've grown up with it do it the other way around. 100%. And for me, it's very much related to like Strictly Come Dancing styles where, you know, people say, do you watch Strictly? And I'm like, I actually personally prefer the dancing that's more natural and that's done say in the streets of Cuba or, you know, or like the Cazomba in Angola.

It's like when, when you see, for me, the best videos is when like they're dancing in the streets and it's more natural and there's more flow. So I prefer the more natural moves. And I think that, you know, for me, there's a lot more connection when.  When there's flow in that sense and it's more heart based rather than I'm thinking so much of what I've got to do next and that takes the enjoyment out of it.

So, yeah, as you said, so important. Very much agree. Yeah, I've never really gotten into Strictly, but I can sit during a social and watch and really enjoy myself.  Oh, yeah, yeah. That's that's very true. Yeah. So Vanessa, you've been in and out of the scene. So you were in it for quite a while in Reading. What made you take a step back? 

Um, so I think this is probably the next topic we'll come on to. It's for me, it's about You know, as a life coach, I'll start with that. Um, I'm very much an advocate of safe spaces, right? So, as a life coach, I create a safe space. And what that means is a space to support the person that has come to me with, you know, whichever challenge they come to me with. 

Now, within the dance community, I've found that there needs to be More or action taken to create a safer space and just to explain to the audience, you know, safe spaces, it's not necessarily just about, you know, going on the dance floor and then somebody perhaps putting their hand in a place they shouldn't be putting it in or it being more of a physical, visible thing.

It's actually goes beyond that, the safe space. And I think a lot of it is the responsibility of the instructor of the class. Right.  And, um, what I'm very surprised about is,  um, as an instructor, I mean, I'm not 100 percent sure what the steps instructors go to to become instructors.  Um, but, um, I'm pretty sure that there isn't enough kind of auditing and vetting going on. 

With at the moment. Yeah. As far as I know, in the UK there is none. Um Right. Okay. Just kind of decide they're gonna be teachers. Um, yes. Yeah. So that's in the UK setting, that's as much as I know. Um, some people do come into it from a teaching background, like school teaching or something. That's their main job and they side teach.

Um, but it's very much  if you wanna teach, you start teaching. And a lot of people do.  Yeah. That's quite surprising for me because. Like you just mentioned, you know, being a teacher,  the due diligence and checks and the protocols that you have to adhere to and go through is  paramount, isn't it? It's important that for the safety of not just children, because you can teach adults.

I taught both children and adults when I was in Valencia, for example. I had to go through checks,  not just DBS, but also I was audited. Yeah, as well. So I'd have someone in that come in the classroom unexpectedly. Yeah, when I was in Valencia, which I feel, yeah, some instructors might be uncomfortable with that.

But should they really be? Because, you know, if they are doing things correctly, and they are creating safe spaces, and they've got nothing to worry about, if someone comes in and, and checks what they're doing.  Yeah, if they come in and they can spot something that's not, um, not acceptable, not up to standard.

That's a good thing, surely. They can come in and say, Hey, this was great. That was great. I noticed this. This is what I'm not too happy with. How could we fix it? Or here's this way you could improve it. That's got to be a good thing.  Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. And, um, that sounds  great that it happens in Spain. 

I'd like to see that happen here. That'd be cool. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it was that specific school because it was an academy that was in, so it was a private school.  Um, so I'm not sure if that applies across, but, you know,  I would advocate that, like, having, um, someone like a governing body to oversee, um, these checks and get people in to just, just have a look and, you know, more objectively, because I think with, you know, within the dance community at the moment, you know, you, you have the camaraderie in it, and so therefore,  I think, you know, Being objective and being a third party takes that away from it, of having to be a certain way, you're just looking and observing,  is this a safe space and, you know, um, is the instructor doing what they're meant to be doing?

And I found in my experience, like, I've probably only met two instructors where I feel that they've got enough self awareness.  Right, because I think that's the start is if you're self aware as an instructor, you're going to be more aware of what's happening in your classroom. Yeah. And you're going to have that peripheral vision, even though you're teaching, you could kind of sense almost on an energetic level sometimes that something is a bit off and  I feel that's lacking massively.

Yeah. And the more, obviously I've been a life coach for 10 years, so, um, I've had to develop my own self awareness, but the more now I go into. Uh, a lesson or like a social, I'm seeing that.  instructors might be very competent in what they're doing, but they're missing something major on major happening, say, in the corner, whereby, you know, it's happened to me recently in a Kazomba class, actually, where there was one person who,  Um,  he'd use words like you're doing this wrong or you're doing that wrong and I actually wasn't.

I mean, I'd hold my hand up if I'm doing things wrong and for those in the dance community who dance with me and know me, I tend to even apologize probably more often than I should, you know, but it's a common problem, isn't it?  It's saying, it's saying sorry. Well, yeah, women in particular, you know, saying sorry for things.

That really you shouldn't be saying sorry for. It's just, you know, perhaps sometimes it's the way in which the leads are leading and there can be quite a bit of ego in that. And I think because  you're never going to eliminate that. Um, behavior, but it, I think it's a responsibility of the instructor to keep an eye on what's happening.

Yeah. But the, the other thing that I find can be difficult is, like, because instructors sometimes say, well, if there's a problem, come to me, but they're not safe enough to approach. So, I've been to a class, um, it was quite a while ago, um, salsa class in Bristol. And, um, I noticed that. I mean, it's actually quite shocking in hindsight, what I saw, but the instructor was actually picking on, um, another, a lead in his class.

He was not very confident. I don't think he was actually doing things that wrong in terms of the way he was leading. Okay. But it just, it was just like this instructor every five minutes would pick on him and the guy was a smaller frame and the instructor's quite big frame actually and taller. And I  This was actually like an egoic thing, like he was trying to feel more empowered.

That's not the way to be empowered, but that's, you know, how he was trying to kind of boost his own masculinity by picking on someone. But that sort of attitude filtered throughout the group. I was just thinking that's how it's going to be if the teacher  behaves in a certain way, just like anything.

Someone comes into a new activity, the teacher behaves in a certain way, you take that as the standard.  Yeah, exactly. Whether you're aware of it or not, people do. assimilate that,  that process a little bit.  Definitely. It gives permission to people because there's a lack of boundaries there. It gives permission to people who have those traits of perhaps being a bit more aggressive than usual to be aggressive.

Yeah. Yeah. And as a result of that, what happened was, because I observed it and I didn't feel safe enough to actually step in and to the instructor and say, hang on a minute, I'm not actually happy with the way you're conducting this class. Yeah. So I just stayed a bit longer just to observe, and then when it actually came to the point where I was dancing with one of his friends, he was a lead, he was a pupil, a student in the class, and he got a little bit aggressive with me, and saying again, and usually it's the lines like, you're doing this wrong, and you know you're not.

You know you're not doing it wrong. Not because of my ego or anything. I'm happy to learn. I'm happy to be put right if I'm not doing a step right. I don't mind that because that's going to boost my learning. But this person  made, I actually started to feel tense as a result. And then he said, relax  and shouted at me.

And, um, and  I just thought, you know what? Like, I think if I was in my twenties where I was perhaps a lot more naive, um, I would have. apologized even to that person, even though they were, you know, I knew I wasn't in the wrong here. But in this case, I literally just said, actually no. And I walked off and I walked out of the class. 

I grabbed my things and I was out and I don't have time for this. No, you're not there to be made to feel small. Yeah, yeah,  exactly. I noticed that was sort of the,  the, the ambience of that, of, of, of the class was, was, um, you know, like I said, the smaller framed guy, he was leading, he was picked on and then consequently it was me next.

And I thought, okay, I see what's going on here.  If that happens now, if I go to a class, I will literally walk out if that behavior happens. If the instructor's not picking that up, and I've picked it up just by walking into the class, then I feel like, Why aren't they? And why are they avoiding it? Is it that they don't want to have any confrontation?

They're worried about losing,  um, you know, people coming to their class. But who actually would want someone like that to come into the class? I think there needs to be, um, boundaries set. And if, if the follower or whoever's in the class or the lead does not accept those boundaries and they just keep, you know, crossing them, then they need to be told to leave.

Oh.  Yeah, they do. They do. It's, it's. I mean, if you wanted to have a strike system of take them to the side, Hey, I've noticed this kind of behavior that's not okay here. Here are the kinds of things that we promote here and that we want to see from everyone.  And then if you want to give that extra chance, fine. 

Perhaps it will be a, you're out, don't come back. Perhaps it will be a come back in two weeks, but think about these things for that time, please. Or something,  something to have a system in place. Thanks.  Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think that's happening enough and what I've seen. No, I agree. I don't know how they're going to take that forward, you know, if, if they're not, if these instructors are not aware of what they're doing, what's it going to take for them to be aware?

This is what's difficult. Hopefully conversations like this. Yes. Yeah. Hopefully they'll, they'll be watching this podcast and some of them will recognize me just, you know, um, some of the classes I've been to and they'll be perhaps thinking, Oh, okay. I wasn't aware of that. But, you know, some of the instructors I've approached with certain topics because, you know,  there's something perhaps I haven't felt comfortable with, but they'll just laugh it off.

and go, oh, no, ha ha ha. And I'm like,  okay, well, I can't really go to you with anything. So I haven't actually been dancing for a while now, you know, and it's quite a sad state of affairs when you just put off by that. Because, um, for me,  Personally, I can get very triggered by that. I'm actually an abuse survivor.

I talk about this publicly. I've gone through many forms of abuse in my life, younger years and a bit older as well. And it makes it even harder for someone like me, and I know I'm not alone in this because I've spoken to many women within the dance community who've opened up. When I opened up on social media about what it was like.

I'd gone through. They also opened up and those very same people are having the courage to go to a dance class. And then they're encountered with,  you know, behavior like that, where they don't have a safe space. Yeah, or behavior and dismissive reactions. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's hard enough for anyone to go, but when you've had that  extra experience where it's been uncomfortable and your boundaries have been crossed.

Yeah. It's even, it's like for me, I would think before going to a dance class, is it safe rather than can I actually do the moves correctly? It's more about safety. Yeah. And so I've sort of been put off for a while, not, not going to any, but I do want to get back into it again. And I'm considering even one to one with instructors that I feel safe with actually. 

And that's that you shouldn't have to go to that additional expense unless that's you want to accelerate your learning, but you feel that you need that for safety reasons. I mean, we have in our one of our chats today, there was some girls talking about  an event that's coming happening this weekend. And one of them thought, Oh, I really I like the guest teacher, but I'm not.

I don't always feel safe in that space. Actually, another lady said, Oh, I'm going to go. So then it was great. Oh, I'll go and I'm going to great. So then it was now we've got this little support network. Then they're like, great. Okay, we'll go together. We know where we are and we can come and find each other if we need to.

And that that's fantastic. I mean, it shouldn't need to be that way, but it's wonderful to see making that space for themselves.  That's a great idea, actually. I think you can start to build that network when you go regularly. Someone like myself is sort of like, I'm not going continuously just because of how busy my life can get.

Yeah. Um, I don't have that support right now, so I'd love to, you know, get in touch after, you know, after this podcast to,  to discuss like how I can, you know, create more safety and maybe more, more support amongst people. Um, people who attend those classes before I  just turn up and then, you know, yeah, yeah, that would be great.

And then that just give me a lot more confidence knowing that there are other people. So if an event does happen where you feel unsafe, you've got someone to talk to about it. Yes, at least. Because it's all well and good. As you say, teachers are telling us just come and speak to me. They're saying that just as if that's an easy thing.

But actually when you've been made to feel vulnerable or small or humiliated in some way. or degraded in some way, then going and telling someone  who's  not a close friend or anything, you don't know that much about them except they're, they're teaching, they're not, you know, actively engaging these kinds of conversations that you can see. 

It's, it's not just come and speak to me. It's actually very difficult to decide, okay, I'm going to go and tell someone about this or tell the,  the important organizer or whatever it is.  Yeah, I 100 percent agree with that. I just think if. If those instructors themselves haven't actually done much in a work, you know, on their own emotions and how they feel and creating safe space for their own selves.

Yeah. Then they're not going to understand what you're talking about. So you can't really go to them. And I can't really go to any instructors right now where I am like to speak to them. Obviously, there are some I haven't met yet. And perhaps I need to meet who could like actually provide that safe space.

But I don't  right now. I'm not not feeling that comfortable about.  It's difficult, isn't it? When you've had a couple of bad experiences or challenging experiences to then keep putting yourself out there and trying different schools, different places to dance out becomes harder and harder. But  if you want to find the place, you're going to enjoy it.

That's what you kind of need to do if you want, if you want to continue,  but it's working against each other. And it's very, it's very frustrating that it happens at all.  Yeah.  Yeah, it's quite surprising this day and age with all the sort of talk about mental health and, you know, there definitely needs to be more.

Maybe they just think, well, dance community, it's just for fun and we don't need to look at,  you know, how it affects our emotions and how it impacts us, maybe. Yeah, it's, oh, it's like sort of that's over there, you know, just, you just go and dance. But no, it's more,  And also, it's a very intimate space, especially with certain dance styles like Kazomba, or Tarashina, which is, for those who don't know Tarashina, it's an even closer style of Kazomba dance.

I find that space You know, there has to definitely be a safe space if you're going to be that close with someone and that intimate. Yeah. Um,  so I tend to sort of, at the moment, I avoid those dances now. I prefer salsa because for me, salsa, there's more of a space. Yeah, you've got that physical space.

There's more physical space there and, um, but like, because ombra and, you know, styles like that can be very, you've got to be very close. You have chest to chest contact sometimes. Yes. Which, you know, just think you're meeting a stranger,  um, and you're having to be that close. physically intimate with them on the first go without even knowing who they are.

Yeah. That, that, you know, takes a lot. This is why, like, we're talking about it's so important that instructors are keeping an eye on how that's going.  Well, it seems that teachers or dancers reach a certain level or they become really good at explaining things to a point where they become teachers.  It kind of happens.

They've, you know, people have asked them how things, this is an assumption, I don't know how all teachers become teachers in dancing, um, let's say, let's say, they kept being asked how to do things and they got really good at explaining what to do and then they started teaching.  Great, they can teach the moves, but now you're actually  the, the spearhead for a community if you have regular lessons.

So there's so much more involved in that than just teaching the dance. You have a lot more responsibility that isn't engaged within a lot of different, I call them dance communities, but are they communities that they're just teaching dance and not the dance itself? Talking about all the side issues, talking about the highs and lows that, that come with learning to dance and having those regular conversations in lesson about what isn't, isn't okay, when to speak up, how to speak up,  all of it. 

Definitely. And something crossed my mind the other day. Um, you know, when, when I knew I was coming on this podcast, I was like, ah, um, I just think that at the beginning of every lesson that they teach, there needs to be, Maybe, like, even just spending five minutes to discuss boundaries in class, because I don't feel that that's really done  in the classes.

Not, not to the extent that it should be. And just communicate, you know, we're here to have fun. However, these things are not accepted within the group, you know, or please come to me. But maybe it's because, you know, it depends on the instructor. Like I said, how aware are they of what's happening? Yeah. And some will be dismissive as you say and think, well, that's nothing.

Yeah. Um,  you know, I think anything can be taught. So  like I said, if there's vetting in place, if there's external auditors or parties that can train. all the instructors that, you know, this is what you need to do at the beginning of every class, set boundaries, um, create a safe space for people. Yeah. And explain what the instructor would do if the boundaries are crossed as well.

So, you know, for example, if I was an instructor, I'll say, right. Okay. If, um, you're making people feel uncomfortable. A friend of mine the other day mentioned, she goes to Salsa regularly, and she mentioned about  sometimes the leads not looking out at the space around them. So they're actually, this is quite common, this has happened to me a lot as well. 

So they're leading you into spaces and you're bumping into people all the time. Yeah. And you are having to say sorry to them and you're like, actually it was the lead that put me there in the first place. Yes. Yeah. Um, and that creates some safety and then you can't relax as a dancer. Um, I think that's quite common because again, the leads not being self-aware, not using peripheral vision.

Yeah. And to be fair, I know they've got a lot, a lot on their mind. Some of them, especially if they're new 'cause they're thinking how do I do the steps? But I think they need to put the safety. as a priority before even the steps themselves. Because when a lead is doing something wrong, it really does not bother me.

I don't care. Because I'm there for the experience. I don't care. Everyone's going to make a mistake. We all mess up. I mess up regularly. Yeah. So what? Yeah. And I actually, yeah, I mess up all the time. Everyone does in a class.  It's amazing how a lot of the leads are focusing more on the fact that they're doing something wrong and they sometimes come over apologetic and I'm just like, really?

Seriously? Doesn't matter. Yeah. You know, I'm following what you are doing. Even if you think you've messed up, I'm still following you in whatever you are doing. Don't worry about it. About it. Don't make it work. Yeah, and I always say that to leads when they get into that state where they almost panic about it. 

And that's where they need that safe space as well. It's not just followers or women that need this, this safer space. It's leads as well. So they feel they could come and speak to their instructor or a fellow classmate and go, this is, this is really getting me wound up every time this happens or, um, X, Y, Z is making me nervous.

What do you do in those situations and having those conversations? Yeah. Yeah. I think that, yeah, the instructor needs to create that space for the leads as well, because. Especially as most Leeds are male, not being sexist, but it's the truth, isn't it? You go to a dance class and the predominant male, the Leeds are, and men don't have much of a history of really talking so much to each other and saying, did I do this wrong?

You know, it's not like women will do it more. We will have a chat with each other if we know each other and say, Oh, maybe I didn't feel safe here. I didn't do this right. Or, you know. Yeah. Males are less likely to do that, and we need to encourage them to do that more often to, with the instructor, obviously, if the instructor, yeah, yeah, it does start from the top.

It all comes back to the instructor. This makes me feel so lucky. So I am part of a teaching team in Frasalsa and Vachata, and  these are things that we do engage with. So we don't do a start of the lesson talk, but throughout our level zero and level one and, and into level two and level three. Gosh, so through it all.

We're talking about what's okay, what's not okay. If something's not okay for you, how to sort it out, because it's okay for followers. If one thing's okay for person A, but person B doesn't like something, they can communicate with their lead and creating that space to have those conversations. And even things like dance floor etiquette, you're saying that's built into our beginners course.

And I think I'm, I'm really lucky to be part of such a  well thought out group of, of teachers and group and community space, because it incorporates Respect in  every part. And I think that's what it, that's what I'm trying to get at, actually. It is all just coming from a place of respect and ending with a place of respect.

And it, it makes it such a better time for everyone.  That sounds amazing. As you know, before we had a chat, uh,  before I came on this podcast with you, I wasn't even aware that you offered, um, this and, um, you said it's, um, something called Salsify, Yeah, Salsify and Pachatify. Yeah. Yeah, so that's something I'd like to try out.

Now I'm made aware of it, so it's good to have these conversations, isn't it, to, so that we, so we know what other options are. Um, so that, yeah, I'd like to pop along to that and, and see how I get on if, you know, there's, uh, as you mentioned, the safe space is created and there's a lot more awareness around it.

That puts me more at ease to know that. Yeah.  Um, I'm really pleased. Um, because it's, it's something that we,  we champion it, but we champion it as part of our, excuse me,  we champion it, but it's, it's part of our everyday language. It's not,  today we're going to focus on  inappropriate behavior or anything like that.

It's, it's a regular part of dance floor etiquette, social etiquette. one on one etiquette. It's, it's just part of how the whole school operates. Um, so yeah, like I say, I feel very lucky to be a member of the community there.  Yeah, it's great. And, um,  I hope to see more of that actually, which means I can just pop to any class and, and it's there and that framework's been put in place.

So maybe, you know, I'm hoping to see you more get involved with, with that sort of, you know, perhaps, um,  your ideas being transmitted into other classes and around Bristol and even beyond there. Yeah, because I'm sure I'm not the only person with these ideas. Definitely not.  Yeah, I think that there's perhaps a lot of people who are thinking it, but they won't implement it for many reasons, right?

I can understand.  So it's great what you're doing, Bobby. I'm so happy that, you know, it just,  it does, it makes me feel like more at ease to know that this is happening now. And now is the time really, because we've moved on a lot over the years. I remember when I first started in Salsa,  um, yeah, it was a lot more, um, It's even more so unregulated when I started in 2008.

And yeah, my boundaries are being crossed left, right and center. You know, people putting their hands where they shouldn't be putting them. Yeah. And me actually thinking this is normal because it's how it's been done. If no one's telling you it's not normal, you don't know. And you start to think, oh, it's just, I'm a bit prudy.

Maybe I'm not used to this dancing style, things like that. But if something doesn't feel right to you, it's not right.  Yes. That's the end of it. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's interesting though, these. So I do hope we're going to see more of this. Um, everywhere as the next few years go by, um, some  people find it a little bit too disruptive almost to have these conversations coming in.

So yeah, I've been doing quite a bit of now. Some think fantastic. This is a great idea. And some think. Yeah.  Oh yeah, um, do we need that, um, we, we have a thing and we have something like this. Then I have a look at their, what they offer and I'm thinking,  where do you mention that? I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Um, so it's,  it's almost like speaking up and equality is, is kind of a hush hush thing. We're not gonna, if we engage with it, it means we have a problem. But yeah, that's it. Yeah, it is a problem and it's okay to have a problem,  right? It's okay. Life is full of challenges and it's okay. It's how you address it.

It's not under the carpet. We're in a stage of our lives now where, you know, we've progressed in society since the 1900s, right? Yes, we have. Yeah, and  we're at a stage now where, um, I feel that we can be having these conversations, especially as people are opening up more. We are talking about more taboo subjects a lot more in society now.

So, you know, to the instructors, this is a great thing. It's not to point out flaws in what they're doing. It's actually to support them. Exactly. Goodness, no, it's not about pointing out flaws. Exactly. It's, it's about, Elevating the scene, making it better, safer, more fun for more people. Yes, and also that will work in their favor because more people are likely to go to their classes.

Yeah. Um, if they know  that the space is safer and they,  they can get a lot more out of it, they can relax more as well without being told to relax. You know, who relaxes when you tell someone to relax? When, especially when they've got their hands on you and they're telling you to relax, you think, Oh my goodness, the last thing my body is going to do now is relax in this presence.

Yeah, exactly.  Exactly. Well, Vanessa, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. Well, I just want to thank you, Bobbie, for, you know, setting this all up in terms of, you know, creating a safer space for us all. It's very, very much needed in the dance community in particular. I think it's needed everywhere, actually, but as we're talking about the dance community, um, for something.

Whereby, you know, you can get very close and intimate with people. There's touch involved. Boundaries are so important. So yeah,  I'm with you.  Thank you so much. It's been wonderful having you. You, you give so much value. I think your experience as a life coach is really clear that you've got that skill very well developed and in how you're explaining these different versions of self awareness and safe spaces.

So thank you so much. I think you've, you've made that really clear for a lot of people.  Oh, thank you, Bobby. Thank you for listening to the Empowered Dancers podcast. If there's an aspect of the dancing you would like to hear about or a particular teacher you would like to hear from, drop me a message and I will try to make it happen.

Make sure you subscribe to get every episode as it comes out. Thank you so much for the comments and questions you are already sharing. I really, really appreciate it and I look forward to serving you in next week's episode.